Name – Duchesse De Bourgogne
Country – United States
Type – Flanders Red Ale
Appearance – Pours a deep mahogany type color with a big sand colored head.
Smell – Holy hand grenade of Antioch Batman, this thing assaulted my nostrils with vinegar. There is a funky sweetness to it as well but man is the vinegar smell strong.
Taste – Oh jeez it’s back. More vinegar in the taste. Some sourness and in opinion, ham. Yes the Christmas dinner type of ham. These are not mixing well to me.
I have not done this in a very long time but this was a sink beer. I fought through half a glass and just couldn’t take it anymore. That vinegar and ham taste was way too strong for me. And this really made me sad because this is one of a very few amount of sour beers we can find easily down here. I at first thought something was wrong with my bottle but after determining my take on it I saw some reviews and they seem to be one with the vinegar. I guess that is the way it’s suppose to be. It’s just not my thing for sour. I prefer the sweet, tart sour. I won’t completely murder it’s grade but this is really low on my scale. Let the hate start flying my way.
Overall Grade – D-
11 Comments
Wow. You don’t see that much in these parts! (sinkable beers that is) From what you describe, I would probably pass on this beer, but it seems like a lot of people LOVE it (including Bob the Brit on our site). Ham? Bleh!
May 18, 2010 at 9:49 amI loved this beer the first time I had it, now everytime I get it all that I taste is mustard. I can barely get down a sip anymore. Undrinkable. Do you put mustard on your ham?
May 18, 2010 at 9:58 amThat’s funny you ask Ryan. I do for sandwiches but my dad puts mustard on ham just normally.
May 18, 2010 at 10:07 amI love Mustard on Ham! Its awesome, but probably not in a beer. Jim sank this beer too, although the ladies loved it! http://beerandwhiskeybros.com/2009/10/01/imagine-if-the-view-was-a-beer/
Jim took a lot of heat for this review. Perhaps you will too. Or maybe they are more tolerant in Florida?
May 18, 2010 at 10:27 amVinegar is a primary quality…in fact, it is very reminiscent of wine, very acidic. I do like it a LOT though, but it’s one of those beers that I have to be in the mood for, and can only drink once in a while. I drink it room temperature too.
When we do trade, Mike, I’ll send you some sours if that’s what you can’t get around your area.
May 18, 2010 at 1:03 pmThanks for the info Nate. I’m not a wine drinker. And when I do I don’t normally care for red wines.
I would definitely be open to that as long as they aren’t of this vinegary variety haha. I like more fruity (can’t believe I’m saying that) and tar variety.
May 18, 2010 at 1:11 pmI think this is one of those cases where we have to get over our preferences and judge a beer by how it fits into the style. I’ve rated several beers well that I’ve dislike immensely. I’m not chiding anyone when I say this but I am reminding all of us that if we can’t have some semblance of objectivity (i.e. it’s a good beer/well made/style appropriate, etc) then all we are doing is simply stating preferences. I personally enjoy this beer quite a bit but that’s not the only point, is it? I don’t think this beer merits that D- based on the fact that it’s categorically appropriate and well done within that context. Of course, you do make the point that you have a preference and you specifically state that it’s low on your scale, which is an admonition that you are grading it subjectively (so you are up front about it).
I really don’t want to come off as being a jerk when I write what I am (and I hope you don’t take it that way). I think we’ve interacted and gotten to know each other well enough through those interactions, that we both have a deep respect for each other…so, I mean no disrespect at all. I’m just pointing out that I personally make other considerations because it’s not simply a matter of preference, it’s a matter of whether the beer is well done (I think it is in this case). So, no hate flying your way from me.
May 18, 2010 at 4:47 pmNo disrespect taken at all Mike. But in my opinion the main part of having one’s own beer blog is to put forth their opinion. We know not everyone is going to agree on opinions and that is why it is so fun to do so. You get to compare your taste for something against someone else. If we didn’t do that then I wouldn’t even bother reading other beer bloggers reviews or even doing this myself and would just stick to RB or BA.
I’m not going to bash the brewer at all for making the beer. Obviously if this was the taste they intended for then I can assume it was well made. If this was not the taste they meant for then I would say that’s not well made. So I will be the last person to ever tell someone that they made a poorly made beer. I’ll let the brewer themselves determine if they believe that or not.
Now as for the style I will say I haven’t had many Flanders Reds in my life but the ones that I have had were nothing like this. Both of the ones that stick out in my mind (Jolly Pumpkin La Roja and Ommegang Rouge) did not have this big vinegar taste to them. I did have another a month or so ago that I guess was a Flanders as it had a very similar style. I don’t recall the name as it was a large tasting with many brews had. The guy that brought it just said it was a style of sour ales. So based on my experiences of the style I did not think it matched up well with the others that I have had that are categorized in the style. But I know you don’t dig categories sometimes. But again that all just goes back to personal taste. I personally believe Maharaja is a great representation of a Double IPA, my favorite at that so in my opinion the best, but other friends of mine do not think so.
While I get what you mean I can’t help but think that reviewing the beer is always going to be subjective no matter what. And I will always be honest with my reviews and I appreciate that you do see that in my writings. And a true brewer or brewery own understands that too and that’s why I think you understand. Being able to take criticism is a difficult thing to do but some people get it and realize that it’s not meant to be mean but it is just giving an opinion. They can take it for what they want.
Again I love your input as always Mike. It’s great when actual conversations occur on the site. They don’t happen enough.
May 18, 2010 at 5:22 pmMike,
Sure the fun part is reviewing the beers on our own and people do bring some unique thoughts on the matter of the beer. I would never dispute the point of stating a fair and honest review. Having own own opinions is the driving force for writing at all, so I totally agree there. You are right to point out that I’m not a huge fan of some categorical distinctions but I don’t dismiss them altogether because they do orient us around what to expect. It’s funny that you point out distinctions you’ve even see among Flanders red because they can be more or less vinegary based on bacterial strains.
I also totally agree that personal preference plays a huge role in the process but there are all sorts of objective categories that are helpful. Carbonation level, clarity, color, (some) aspects of main aromas and main taste qualities are just a few of the more definitive aspects of a beer. So, while I agree that there is a fair degree of subjectivity, there are also some more objective qualifications, too. I’m not suggesting that you change a thing about how you review (it would be stupid and unnecessary) but I’ve been known to give a preferential rating along side a rating that attempts to be at least a little more objective.
I think part of the reason I do this is to state that it’s not my thing but that they did a good job doing it. I also think it offers the reader who likes the style a chance to see it within the context of other beers within the style (as much as I myself dislike the beer) . Personally, I would probably give the same bad score to any beer that had a flavor quality that I disliked if not for orienting my thoughts around more than just liking or disliking the brew. In the past, I might have done that with an West Coast IPA because I disliked that piney/grapefruity tones. I constantly reminded myself that, as much as I disliked that quality, I shouldn’t be tempted to score them all equally or even equally badly based on preference. Obviously, vinegar can be off-putting, especially for those who dislike the flavor to begin with. I doubt someone who dislike sour flavors would ever enjoy a sour beer. But there are better or worse ones.
Either way, this isn’t the first time we’ve disagreed about something and I’m sure we’ll make it through :). The fact that we are able to dialogue about this with civility shows that we’re not taking ourselves too serious or inclined to be offended. I appreciate your perspective because it sharpens what I think about the topic…I hope you feel the same.
May 18, 2010 at 6:09 pmIt certainly will not be the last time we disagree :). And yes it is good that we can do this in such a respectful and civil manner. I’ve been told before I take my reviews too seriously. I do to a certain extent but only because it’s my opinion. I don’t get upset in the slightest if someone doesn’t agree with me, you are entitled to that. I also try to be light hearted and throw some of my tongue in cheek or dry humor in here and there just to show some of my personality. Some times people get it and sometimes people don’t (Just see my review of Skull Splitter where some people take offense to me calling the viking goofy looking).
But again you definitely do make valid points about trying to at least be objective towards the style. I know you don’t like those grapefruity hops, and I do, but you still do try them. I guess I take that stance to heart with brewers. There is a number of breweries that I have never had anything good by them but that isn’t going to stop me from trying other and new things from them. I might just find one a really like. It happened with Lost Coast recently for me.
I’m glad you come by Mike and even more grateful that you read my articles and have stuff to say. You have no idea how much it means to me. I try to do the same for you guys when I can. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you guys) you can get your hands on a good number of things I can’t and I feel bad when I can’t offer my input because I have no clue about it. But again I try.
May 19, 2010 at 8:32 amGood dialogue here! I think both points are very important, and I really respect that Michael is able to keep all that in mind when reviewing a beer. Personally, I’m not that well versed (yet) in beer styles and beer correctness, so my reviews bend toward the personal rather than the scientific, as do Mike’s reviews here (I think).
Personally, if a beer tastes like ham and mustard, I’m not going to like it, and I’d probably not going to rate it very highly regardless of how it is to other ham and mustard class beers. To me, its hard to give a beer a good rating if it ends up down the drain.
May 19, 2010 at 10:24 am